Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Samej Jangir]

Opinion | Why India Testing Agni-5 is a Milestone Moment - News18

Opinion | Why India Testing Agni-5 is a Milestone Moment: India needs to continuously upgrade platform and weapon head technology. Hypersonic nuclear weapons are also evolving

www.news18.com

also you still dont get the missile number per tube so i dont wanna argue bout that

It is like the cost of Tejas, P17B. It includes R&D cost, cost of infrastructure etc in the first batch. Next batches will only be manufacturing cost where it will get cheap

 

[Samej Jangir]

The cost of missiles or rockets are not depending on their size but the requirement and related technologies/material.
Once missiles are built, they will have to be kept in service for at least 15 years. In this 15 years, they be moving around on the truck, lifting up and putting down for training purpose. And also they are required to be launch in all weather conditions.

On the other hand, satellite rockets are launched in one year after produced. Most of time before launch, they are kept in the factory's warehouse in which temperature, humidity, etc, are carefully managed. On the date of launch, if there is raining, you know what? They may cancel the launch.

So, the working conditions of missiles are much worse than rockets like PSLV. That is why people like to use the best technologies/material, highest production standard to build these weapons. That is why they are more expensive.

I am speaking of SILO based missile, not TEL based ones. SILO based ones are fixed & don't move. They also have good storage conditions as SILOs are designed for it. It will always be much cheaper than SSBN

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

It is like the cost of Tejas, P17B. It includes R&D cost, cost of infrastructure etc in the first batch. Next batches will only be manufacturing cost where it will get cheap

right its economics but then whats your point suggesting silo over ssbn ?

 

[Azaad]

While India’s P-75I Submarines Hang In Balance, Pakistan Is Racing Ahead With Next-Gen Chinese Boats

While the Indian Navy’s project to acquire six next-generation submarines under Project-75I remains in limbo, Pakistan is racing ahead with its submarine program

swarajyamag.com

Where Are India’s Next Generation P-75I Submarines As Pakistan Races Away With Chinese Boats?


The Indian Navy has been looking to induct these next-generation submarines for the past decade and a half. The project, even after so long, has not seen the light of day, with only the Germans with their Type-214 submarines and the Spanish with their S-80 submarines, in the fray.

The project has seen repeated delays due to a lack of funds, decision-making, and absurd contractual requirements.

Early this month, a team from the navy visited Germany to conduct a field inspection of the AIP system offered by ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), the German entrant in the P-75I program. The team will also visit Spain to do the same with their offering.

Most of the Pakistan Navy’s submarines are equipped with AIP. Pakistan Navy’s French-supplied Agosta-90B have had AIP installed since the 2000s.

The eight Hangor-class submarines will also have AIP.

The Indian Navy, on the other hand, has none.

Guess a lot of you guys missed this little news from 2 years ago .

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/world/germany-refuses-to-help-imran-khans-government-modernise-pakistani-submarines-report-5758211.html

Germany refuses to supply engines for Pakistan's Chinese origin Submarines

Chinese has reportedly offered reversed-engineered Chinese-made engines that are certified by Germany’s MTU.

iadnews.in

Now the PN is least happy with these developments but in the absence of any alternative have to go in for the Chinese copy. To those who think China's going to install in these submarines exactly a replica of what they use in their own Yuan class SSKs , think again. The Yuan class meant for export is in itself a downgraded version of what the PLAN uses.

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

Guess a lot of you guys missed this little news from 2 years ago .

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/world/germany-refuses-to-help-imran-khans-government-modernise-pakistani-submarines-report-5758211.html

Now the PN is least happy with these developments but in the absence of any alternative have to go in for the Chinese copy. To those who think China's going to install in these submarines exactly a replica of what they use in their own Yuan class SSKs , think again. The Yuan class meant for export is in itself a downgraded version of what the PLAN uses.

also the fact that its just a downgraded copied kilo class nothing special about it but 8 in numbers is somewhat useful ant they got it in 5 billion so its worth the money too

 

[Azaad]

also the fact that its just a downgraded copied kilo class nothing special about it but 8 in numbers is somewhat useful ant they got it in 5 billion so its worth the money too

Paxtan's a bit late to the party . Plus they plan on deploying the Hangor class for strategic use . To what extent is unknown at this point in time as in we aren't sure if all their submarines would be used to launch N tipped SLCMs .

Usually nations which can't afford to spend much on matching their enemy's spending power or tech tend to area denial measures of which the submarines form a vital if not the most vital component.

The Kilo class as mfgd by the Russians used to be known as the black hole for its extremely silent performance . Let's see how far the Chinese replicate it. However the original Kilo class wasn't equipped with the AIP.

The Hangor class is expected to come with a Stirling cycle engine AIP which by its very nature of operations generates noise. Hopefully for PN it won't resemble an undersea orchestra.

 

[Azaad]

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

dont know how they even try to infiltrate knowing doppler and elm radars are all over the place lmao

 

[Blood+]

Paxtan's a bit late to the party . Plus they plan on deploying the Hangor class for strategic use . To what extent is unknown at this point in time as in we aren't sure if all their submarines would be used to launch N tipped SLCMs .

Usually nations which can't afford to spend much on matching their enemy's spending power or tech tend to area denial measures of which the submarines form a vital if not the most vital component.

The Kilo class as mfgd by the Russians used to be known as the black hole for its extremely silent performance . Let's see how far the Chinese replicate it. However the original Kilo class wasn't equipped with the AIP.

The Hangor class is expected to come with a Stirling cycle engine AIP which by its very nature of operations generates noise. Hopefully for PN it won't resemble an undersea orchestra.

This may come across as a noob question but you think Li ion batteries could substitute AIP altogether??

 

[Azaad]

This may come across as a noob question but you think Li ion batteries could substitute AIP altogether??

It already has in the latest class of Japanese submarines - the Taigei class.

Taigei-class submarine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[NutCracker]

This may come across as a noob question but you think Li ion batteries could substitute AIP altogether??

DRDO uses NaBH4 for electrolysis.

11% of weight is Hydrogen. Aka 4/38 kg(whole compound NaBH4).
4 kg of Hydrogen needs 32kg of oxygen.

Total weight 38+32=70kg

That 4kg of hydrogen or 70 kg of whole chemical compounds= 96KWh in fuel cell

No battery in the world gives that much energy density. Even most advanced Li-ion tech will use 3kg per KWh , making 96Kwh setup weighing 288kg.


Even if electrolysis involves some heavier components, I think li-ion cant compete.

 

[Blood+]

DRDO uses NaBH4 for electrolysis.

11% of weight is Hydrogen. Aka 4/38 kg(whole compound NaBH4).
4 kg of Hydrogen needs 32kg of oxygen.

Total weight 38+32=70kg

That 4kg of hydrogen or 70 kg of whole chemical compounds= 96KWh in fuel cell

No battery in the world gives that much energy density. Even most advanced Li-ion tech will use 3kg per KWh , making 96Kwh setup weighing 288kg.


Even if electrolysis involves some heavier components, I think li-ion cant compete.

I see. What's the current status of this AIP, any idea??

 

[Cheran]

I see. What's the current status of this AIP, any idea??

DRDO AIP //Feb 2023 status

Why Navy plan to fit Scorpene subs with made-in-India propulsion tech won't materialise before 2024

The Air-Independent Propulsion system has a force multiplier effect on the lethality of diesel-electric submarines and can be more silent than a nuclear submarine.

theprint.in

 

[Azaad]

DRDO uses NaBH4 for electrolysis.

11% of weight is Hydrogen. Aka 4/38 kg(whole compound NaBH4).
4 kg of Hydrogen needs 32kg of oxygen.

Total weight 38+32=70kg

That 4kg of hydrogen or 70 kg of whole chemical compounds= 96KWh in fuel cell

No battery in the world gives that much energy density. Even most advanced Li-ion tech will use 3kg per KWh , making 96Kwh setup weighing 288kg.


Even if electrolysis involves some heavier components, I think li-ion cant compete.

No clue about the battery chemistry calculations but the Japanese aren't the only ones going in for Li - ion battery packs.

South Korean submarine launch milestone - Defence Review Asia

On April 4 South Korean shipbuilding giant Hyundai Heavy Industries contractually delivered yet another submarine as part of an attack class program that started in 1994.

defencereviewasia.com

 

[NutCracker]

No clue about the battery chemistry calculations but the Japanese aren't the only ones going in for Li - ion battery packs.

South Korean submarine launch milestone - Defence Review Asia

On April 4 South Korean shipbuilding giant Hyundai Heavy Industries contractually delivered yet another submarine as part of an attack class program that started in 1994.

defencereviewasia.com

S .Korean and Japs are pioneers in battery tech. Good 'ol Panasonic and LG.
So they might have something up their sleeves.

 

[Azaad]

S .Korean and Japs are pioneers in battery tech. Good 'ol Panasonic and LG.
So they might have something up their sleeves.

I hope you guys aren't seeing Li ion battery packs as a substitute for AIP coz in my limited knowledge they aren't. They're a substitute for the lead acid batteries.

 

[Samej Jangir]

right its economics but then whats your point suggesting silo over ssbn ?

SSBN has many drawbacks:
1. Higher service rate: SILOs can be hidden permanently & with radars to detect incoming missiles, any SILO which is deep in India like Vindhyas, Western Ghats, Eastern Ghats, Aravallis, Odisha, Chattisgarh mountains etc can be fired as soon as incoming missiles are detected to be incoming, preventing any first strikes, even if SILOs are somehow spotted. Submarines always have downtime of 30% as there are supply needs like food, sanitary equipments & fatigue issues
2. Cost: SILOs cost much lesser (1%) per ICBM whereas the submarine cost per ICBM (cost per submarine/number of ICBM) is way too high. Remember, each missile in a SILO can carry MIRV too. So, if there are 500 SILOs, there can be 2000-2500 warheads. Also, since ICBM needs to be placed in both submarine & SILO, only the cost of container is in question, not cost of missile. This means we must only compare cost of making an underground structure containing the missile vs submarine & exclude missile cost itself. So, cost of a SILO becomes 10 crores (mostly concrete & launch mechanisms) compared to 6000 crore for S5 submarines with 6 ICBMs or 1000 crore per ICBM!
3. Bad communication: Since it is underwater most of the time, it can't get quick & direct communications. Even deploying buoys to get indirect communication can be detected by SIGINT. Hence even in case os wars, the time to relay the info to SSBN will be too much and hence its attacks not very effective
4. Missile preservation: Being moved around in submarine, TEL etc takes a toll of missile life. But in SILO, it can be preserved for long time by maintaining air condition and undisturbed environment.

 

[Samej Jangir]

No clue about the battery chemistry calculations but the Japanese aren't the only ones going in for Li - ion battery packs.

South Korean submarine launch milestone - Defence Review Asia

On April 4 South Korean shipbuilding giant Hyundai Heavy Industries contractually delivered yet another submarine as part of an attack class program that started in 1994.

defencereviewasia.com

Japanese are controlled by USA. So is SKorea, Germany. Do you know of any independent state that uses Lithium battery for AIP? Li battery for replacing regular Lead acid batteries used in normal operations is understandable. But use in AIP is not very smart

 

[Samej Jangir]

View attachment 250739

DRDO AIP //Feb 2023 status

Why Navy plan to fit Scorpene subs with made-in-India propulsion tech won't materialise before 2024

The Air-Independent Propulsion system has a force multiplier effect on the lethality of diesel-electric submarines and can be more silent than a nuclear submarine.

theprint.in

That is obvious. No one will open up Kalveri class so early on and take years of time to refit and extend them by adding AIP. The question is not just about tech but about redesigning Kalvaris to suit the centre of gravity, buoyancy, fluid dynamics, weight etc. Also, such extensive redesign & refit will take lots of time which will never be done in a submarine just commissioned in 2017 (1st submarine). Refit will be done at most after 15 years, although 20 years is the norm for overhauling.

Realistically, it is better to build new submarines than refit the Kalvaris with AIP