Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[hitesh]

german

 

[Archer]

What brochure claims? Penetration can be calculated. Brochures are only guides for the said calculation. Calculate it anyway you want. There is one thing I have concluded with our discussions, you know as much as a media guy does on the Arjun, but you have limited knowledge on anything outside. The Israeli shells are all less than 600mm long, the 3BM44M is somewhere else.

Your conclusions are not worth much because what you are, is an internet jockey. You unquestioningly swallow any bilge handed out to you by any PR and then claim it to be true. Go outside some time & check whats happening in real world!

he T-95 cancellation reasons are not completely known. But you are giving blind reasons on why "India has surpassed Russian armour." Funding is not the only aspect of armour. It is clear you haven't read the earlier pages, even if you did then you have not understood what we have been discussing about.

The entire "discussion" has folks like you gabbing away! If you place yourself as the benchmark then it says it all. Funding is critical to weapon systems! It allows de novo developers to surpass old timers, which is what has happened to Russia. Go speak sometime to some Russian old timers & you'll be surprised at how candid they are!

If funding was the only reason then China would be releasing a different design everyday.

And they are, which is what makes them so bloody dangerous

Simple math shows the 740mm shell with newer propellant will obviously surpass older, smaller rod shells made in Israel.

Simple math which does not agree with real world results

So, stop embarrassing yourself. You are making one mistake after the other.

Compared to geniuses like you, I have a long way to go to embarass myself!

It is very clear you haven't been reading. Some of Fofanov's claims have been rubbished. So, some of your information from Fofanov may also be discrepant. At the very least start off from where Andrei makes an appearance in page 60s or something in this thread. Then you will have a gist of what's happening here.

Fofanov's little pinky knows more about tanks than you and many of your chums combined. All I see is unquestioning acceptance of PR material with brains switched off and no clue of the reality.

 

[hitesh]

MODERN SUB-CALIBRE AMMUNITION

40x255 (CTWS APFSDS), 35x228 (Oerlikon KDE APDS), 50x330 sectioned 50mm Supershot APFSDS), 40x364 (Bofors with exp. APDS), 57x441R (6 pdr 7 cwt with APFSDS: experimental projectile in WW2 case for developing 120mm APFSDS), 60x410R (IMI / OTO 60mm)

 

[militarysta]

All you have pointed out so far is that Israel was not ideal. Which is hardly the point if Russia was worse. You guys need to use some of the latest land systems tech from Russia sometime & see the "teething troubles" than come back and talk.[/qoute]

After first compared whit Germans technology, Russian was immediately rejected. After a few serious cases, where data from the Jews lied now in Poland, we very seriously tested the potential purchases from Israel.

Then you'll stop talking of "jewish miracles"!

Now Polish Spike ATGM have less then 5% bugs after launch, but 5 years ago it was about 14%
This was unacceptable.
Like more than 20% of defective cores from Israel.

 

[p2prada]

@ Archer

You are embarrassing yourself time and again. The issues with most Russian weapons have been sorted out. Issues always crop up and these go only after some time. That's why most of them are called teething issues in the first place. Even Indian made equipment have had issues and so have Israeli systems. On the other hand Arjun's issues are major compatibility issues. Engine failures, rangefinder issues, transmission issues etc etc.

BTW, in your discussions with Damian I noticed you easily sidetracked from the statements you made and he pointed out. You still haven't replied to it and seems like you will not either.

Read Post 912. Notice the statement "and is overall superior to the T-90 across the board,"...

After that read post 915 followed by all other posts which continues the conversation.

You will then see that your entire charade in this thread has been exactly like that.

 

[Archer]

@ Archer

You are embarrassing yourself time and again. The issues with most Russian weapons have been sorted out. Issues always crop up and these go only after some time. That's why most of them are called teething issues in the first place. Even Indian made equipment have had issues and so have Israeli systems. On the other hand Arjun's issues are major compatibility issues. Engine failures, rangefinder issues, transmission issues etc etc.

P2P, if you were not a teenager with an attitude, you'd actually be worried about your own antics viz embarassment or what not. First, get off your butt sometime and go learn, after dropping the stupid attitude that you actually know more than people who have actually done the legwork to understand these issues in detail.

You say the issues with most Russian weapons have been sorted out. Thats the most stupid thing I have read so far from your end, when they havent! Problems keep cropping up and India sorts them out via jugaad or keeping excess spares, hardly ideal!

BTW, in your discussions with Damian I noticed you easily sidetracked from the statements you made and he pointed out. You still haven't replied to it and seems like you will not either.

Read Post 912. Notice the statement "and is overall superior to the T-90 across the board,"...

After that read post 915 followed by all other posts which continues the conversation.

You will then see that your entire charade in this thread has been exactly like that.

I cant help it if you lack the most basic of comprehension. The Arjun is superior to the T-90 across the board. Overall, it has better firepower, better tactical mobility and better armour, not to mention better ergonomics and crew systems. That you don't know about this, despite ample spoonfeeding on my part, speaks for itself.

Not to mention that being a teenaged net jockey, you didnt even know that the rounds I mentioned were all 1995 and thereafter (your genius had them at 1985), the Indian Armor does not have any Polish FCS (your silly claims notwithstanding).

All you have to demo your lack of awareness is talk of trolling and embarassment. If you indeed had any shame whatsoever, you'd have found a bucket and dunked your head in it!

 

[hitesh]

 

[Damian]

So trying to disguise your ignorance and initial silliness regarding your abusive behaviour, eh? If you don't know or care what MBTs are called in India and how they are classified, why are you discussing Indian Armour with the attitude of knowing all about it? And as regards experience with armour, suffice to say India has more experience with armour operations, than most nations.

Ah so India's terminology and armor experience is far superior to Russian, US, German, French, British, Israeli, Polish even? All these countries were much earlier in MBT's buissness, and MBT is MBT, there is no medium or heavy MBT, MBT means Main Battle Tank. So don't call You tanks MBT's but just Medium and Heavy Tanks. Simple as simple is terminology.

Yes, give you "proofs" after which you claim India releases too many results whereas beloved Russia does not, hence latter is right!

WTF?

External appearance, without a clue of the actual armour arrays and how its stacked up. Says it all.

From external and turret interior views we can say where armor is placed and how thick it is.

The Army tested the Arjun turret in a variety of live fire tests & found it able to resist whatever was thrown against it.

And it was not tested against state of the art ammunition.

 

[Archer]

After first compared whit Germans technology, Russian was immediately rejected. After a few serious cases, where data from the Jews lied now in Poland, we very seriously tested the potential purchases from Israel.


Now Polish Spike ATGM have less then 5% bugs after launch, but 5 years ago it was about 14%
This was unacceptable.
Like more than 20% of defective cores from Israel.

Militarysta, what you faced with israel, we have faced with Russia! The Air Force and Navy followed your lesson - extensive testing and acceptance only thereafter. The Army is yet to learn this. Air Force learnt its lesson when Kopyos for the Bison only had a few hours reliability vs 200 odd hours claimed. Today, its better, but still half that, and an Indian company is sorting out the issues. Navy got so fed up with Russian behaviour on deal after deal, that it started floating international tenders.

Army OTOH, remains dogged by dubious procurement policies and last momentitis. We acquired Smerch - systems failed. We did not even conduct own live fires in Russia, Russians claimed agreement did not have them. Many such cases....where we are now paying the price and resortung to painful fixes. Kids like P2P wont admit the reality, but its a hard lesson anyhow..

 

[Damian]

The Arjun is superior to the T-90 across the board. Overall, it has better firepower, better tactical mobility and better armour,

We wan't proof that Arjun have superior firepower and protection than T-90. Proof! Any photos from tests? Anything? Why we need to belive You or DRDO? Because?

Army OTOH, remains dogged by dubious procurement policies and last momentitis. We acquired Smerch - systems failed. We did not even conduct own live fires in Russia, Russians claimed agreement did not have them. Many such cases....where we are now paying the price and resortung to painful fixes. Kids like P2P wont admit the reality, but its a hard lesson anyhow..

So why are You buying Russian equipment if it is so bad? Why not You buy US equipment, proven in real battles, why not German? British? French? WHY?

 

[Archer]

Ah so India's terminology and armor experience is far superior to Russian, US, German, French, British, Israeli, Polish even? All these countries were much earlier in MBT's buissness, and MBT is MBT, there is no medium or heavy MBT, MBT means Main Battle Tank. So don't call You tanks MBT's but just Medium and Heavy Tanks. Simple as simple is terminology.

And who are you to speak for all these countries and dictate to Indian Army what it chooses to call its tanks? Your absurd arrogance speaks for itself. If India wishes to call its tanks, Heavy MBTs or Medium MBTs thats its choice to make. Wake up sometime.

WTF?

My feeling at 90% of your statements.

From external and turret interior views we can say where armor is placed and how thick it is.

Oh yes, you have automatic 3D vision which allows you to tell how armour is placed, how thick it is, and what it comprises of, and its overall effects.

I wonder why people even have CAD/CAM or CAE. They should just ask you to use your superman vision and learn everything, right.

And it was not tested against state of the art ammunition.

Yes, you were of course there at the trials, with your x-ray vision knowing everything that went on & knowing what was tested, at what ranges, and the requirements even.

Brilliant.

 

[militarysta]

More rubbish. The Army tested the Arjun turret in a variety of live fire tests & found it able to resist whatever was thrown against it. And what do you base your "understanding" on? External appearance, without a clue of the actual armour arrays and how its stacked up. Says it all.

First:
You just know that is big dirence between testing something with APDFSDS with 500 and with 650mm RHA for 2000m. Or ATGM with single and double SC. You known that very well I'll supose.

Second:
Im pretty sure that You know taht, we can estimate the protection of the turret in two respects:

1) quality of armor - And of course I havn't idea about Ajrun in that way (in contrast to Leo2A4, PT-91, russian tanks, etc).
2) integrity of the shield - LOS thickness, number and size of the weakened areas, range of angles for which the crew is protected by armor, location of the crew, ammunition, FCS.

And in that second case Ajrun sucks. Sorry - it's not my fault. You try to "hide" second area od analysis, to be reduced to absurdity the whole. Sorry - Im to old for that.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

We wan't proof that Arjun have superior firepower and protection than T-90. Proof! Any photos from tests? Anything? Why we need to belive You or DRDO? Because?



So why are You buying Russian equipment if it is so bad? Why not You buy US equipment, proven in real battles, why not German? British? French? WHY?

No need for hostilities here and no one is saying Russian equipment is bad, russian equipment is really great but the service and spares have become very bad since the collapse of USSR.

Also the Arjun has a better fire control system,suspension and Armour, please google it and compare it yourself. We dont buy USA stuff because they come with strings attached and they pull them each time to control us. The reason IA buys T-90 is because Arjun has massive delays and there is also internal politics and kick backs they receive when purchasing Russian equipment.

If your porke pretending to be a polish guy you will get banned before you can get a hard on by derailing this thread.

 

[Archer]

We wan't proof that Arjun have superior firepower and protection than T-90. Proof! Any photos from tests? Anything? Why we need to belive You or DRDO? Because?

Because in the most recent trials in 2010, the Arjun outran and outgunned the T-90. And according to what even a prominent Arjun baiter admitted, and the Army itself deposed to Parliament, the Arjun is superior to the T-90 and is considered a different class of tank. Go google up the proof. There are several retired Army officers admitting the same. Besides which, anything any Indian says won't be proof enough for your high and mighty soul would it. Not against the Russians who are so mighty and whose ancestors come from Mount Olympus!

Your defence of the T-90 is amazing. I don't know what it is about Russia that brings out your fanatical belief in them, but its high time you woke up and realized its really not the be-all or end-all of tank design. Heck, its no Merkava4 or the latest Leopard or Abrams variant either.

The Arjun defeating it is not that much of a big deal either.

So why are You buying Russian equipment if it is so bad? Why not You buy US equipment, proven in real battles, why not German? British? French? WHY?

Because Russian equipment is cheap, in line with existing logistics (T-72 tanks), and because there is also a huge lobby for Russian arms vendors. Lastly, unlike US and European equipment, it comes without intrusive inspections and threats of sanctions.

 

[Damian]

And who are you to speak for all these countries and dictate to Indian Army what it chooses to call its tanks? Your absurd arrogance speaks for itself. If India wishes to call its tanks, Heavy MBTs or Medium MBTs thats its choice to make. Wake up sometime.

I'am from country that use proper nimenclature used around the world. Maybe You should wake... I hate nationalists...

Oh yes, you have automatic 3D vision which allows you to tell how armour is placed, how thick it is, and what it comprises of, and its overall effects.

I wonder why people even have CAD/CAM or CAE. They should just ask you to use your superman vision and learn everything, right.

Oh if You had at least 1% of knowledge about modern tanks and their armor You would know that to see where multilayer laminate armor is placed and how thick it is You only need to search weld lines and then compare photographs of these weld lines placement with interior photos.

This is Your lack of knowledge.

Yes, you were of course there at the trials, with your x-ray vision knowing everything that went on & knowing what was tested, at what ranges, and the requirements even.

So what ammunition was used against Arjun?! Give me types, distance of fire, from what gun, at what angle You moron, I have enough of Your arrogance, ignorance and nationalistic technolgical rasism! Give us proof of Your statements or shut up!

 

[Damian]

Because in the most recent trials in 2010, the Arjun outran and outgunned the T-90. And according to what even a prominent Arjun baiter admitted, and the Army itself deposed to Parliament, the Arjun is superior to the T-90 and is considered a different class of tank. Go google up the proof. There are several retired Army officers admitting the same. Besides which, anything any Indian says won't be proof enough for your high and mighty soul would it. Not against the Russians who are so mighty and whose ancestors come from Mount Olympus!

These are not proofs, these are only statements, why India just did not made comparision trails with specialists from around the world, so trails data would be more objective, here are only statements from people that have Arjun agenda.

Your defence of the T-90 is amazing. I don't know what it is about Russia that brings out your fanatical belief in them, but its high time you woke up and realized its really not the be-all or end-all of tank design. Heck, its no Merkava4 or the latest Leopard or Abrams variant either.

Russia, as US, Germany, UK, France, Israel have much greater experience in tank designing than India, so how the hell India's first MBT is so superior? How?! This is Your first MBT so from where Your engeeners have experience and proper data to develop superior tank? From where? Where is logic in such statements?

Because Russian equipment is cheap, in line with existing logistics (T-72 tanks), and because there is also a huge lobby for Russian arms vendors. Lastly, unlike US and European equipment, it comes without intrusive inspections and threats of sanctions.

But maybe it is time to use equipment that is more expensive? If You don't like Russian equipment buy French equipment, or US equipment, I think that senators in Washington will be happy as hell from signing multibilion contracts with India.

 

[Archer]

First:
You just know that is big dirence between testing something with APDFSDS with 500 and with 650mm RHA for 2000m. Or ATGM with single and double SC. You known that very well I'll supose.

Are you aware of a simple thing called VDrop?

Second:
Im pretty sure that You know taht, we can estimate the protection of the turret in two respects:

1) quality of armor - And of course I havn't idea about Ajrun in that way (in contrast to Leo2A4, PT-91, russian tanks, etc).
2) integrity of the shield - LOS thickness, number and size of the weakened areas, range of angles for which the crew is protected by armor, location of the crew, ammunition, FCS.

And in that second case Ajrun sucks. Sorry - it's not my fault. You try to "hide" second area od analysis, to be reduced to absurdity the whole. Sorry - Im to old for that.

Boss, you have no idea of the latter. You and the rest of the photoshop brigade on the net, make a joke out of yourself with pointed arrows about how x tanks sucks, what weakened areas it has and what it does not...frankly, its all good for teenagers!

Last time I actually asked one developer about the so called weakened areas you and your chums on forums come up with for the Leopard 2A4 etc, he had a hearty laugh, because most of these areas were taken care of on the Arjun, exterior pics apart!

Another bunch of experts were busy telling me about the weakened areas on the Arjun versus the T-90. Idiots did not even have a clue that the Arjun resisted live fire tests in those weakened areas to the extent that the T series tank cannot!

Which is why 90% of the so called "analysis" you guys come up with is pure junk and fantasy.

The biggest bunch of BS'ers on the net are a bunch of rabid Russians. With nice little arrows, and 45 deg cones made nicenly out of the T-90 frontal area and what not it becomes a magic tank with better armor layout than every other tank out there. Reality begs otherwise.

The Arjun is not perfect. It has turret top vulnerabilities to heavy ATGMs, limited rear coverage of armor, lack of all electric controls (EH systems have issues in all tanks)....but the claims you chaps come up with is ridiculous, to say the least. Since you have no idea of the tests the Arjun faced, the angles the projectiles were fired at it, and even the types..

 

[Damian]

How do we can belive You that You talked with tank developer? Any proof of that?

I can say that my close friend is president Reagan, do You belive me?

You see, this is how worth are Your statements.

 

[Archer]

These are not proofs, these are only statements, why India just did not made comparision trails with specialists from around the world, so trails data would be more objective, here are only statements from people that have Arjun agenda.

Yes, India should invite specialists from across the world to trial its weapon systems, and give them everything on a platter and so you could read about it on the net or in some military magazine. Of course, the fact that India collaborated with specialists from Sagem, IMI, Elop to audit & even codevelop systems on the tank, KMW for overall design, used German suppliers like Renk, Rexroth etc does not mean anything either.
Right? Awe inspiring brilliance there.
So the users who ride the Arjun into battle and want it to work or they will flunk it have an Arjun agenda. Brilliant, again.

Russia, as US, Germany, UK, France, Israel have much greater experience in tank designing than India, so how the hell India's first MBT is so superior? How?! This is Your first MBT so from where Your engeeners have experience and proper data to develop superior tank? From where? Where is logic in such statements?

Do you even have an idea or is it that you are just so unaware? Do you even know the number of agencies DRDO worked with to refine the Arjun? Do you even know how much effort went into the trials and system integration? Clearly, not. And I didnt say Arjun is superior to all tanks either. Its designed for Indian needs, that means it works in Indian conditions to IA reqs. Your other kit, won't and thats what it boils down to.

But maybe it is time to use equipment that is more expensive? If You don't like Russian equipment buy French equipment, or US equipment, I think that senators in Washington will be happy as hell from signing multibilion contracts with India.

We already are. If it works, we will buy it, irrespective of how much you complain.

 

[Damian]

Yes, India should invite specialists from across the world to trial its weapon systems, and give them everything on a platter and so you could read about it on the net or in some military magazine. Of course, the fact that India collaborated with specialists from Sagem, IMI, Elop to audit & even codevelop systems on the tank, KMW for overall design, used German suppliers like Renk, Rexroth etc does not mean anything either.
Right? Awe inspiring brilliance there.
So the users who ride the Arjun into battle and want it to work or they will flunk it have an Arjun agenda. Brilliant, again.

So just stop this ridicoulus statements about absolut superiority.

Do you even have an idea or is it that you are just so unaware? Do you even know the number of agencies DRDO worked with to refine the Arjun? Do you even know how much effort went into the trials and system integration? Clearly, not. And I didnt say Arjun is superior to all tanks either. Its designed for Indian needs, that means it works in Indian conditions to IA reqs. Your other kit, won't and thats what it boils down to.

Yes and of course these agencies give You all their knowledge on tank designs, so You could design something comparabale to their designs that is cheaper and You will compete with them on wolrd market? You are not arrogant and ignorant, You are just naive.