Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Godless-Kafir]

If there are photos of turret interior that shows turret front from loader or TC/Gunner perspective we can see where armor ends inside, however I susspect that it is similiar to Leopard 2, so front armor will go to more or less further half of gun mantle armor mask. So mask should be ~400mm thick and front turret armor on the loaders side ~800mm, right turret side front armor is a bit more complicated design due to main sight placement, but on the first look ti should be ~600mm behind main sight, problem starts with section under main sight, without good photos is hard to say how armor is configured there.

So how does that compare to the western tanks in armour? Without knowing the inner dimensions of the turret, how where you able to compare the armour in the inner citadel?

Russian/Ukrainian tanks armor density is higher than other tanks due to their dimensions, this actually don't mean better overall protection, it actually means comparabale protection to tanks with thicker armor that is using probably more advanced materials.

How is a thicker Armour qualify as being more advanced than denser Russian armor? Wont that just mean having different characteristics?

It is not so easy issue, and please, don't write posts in a way that they sounds rascist.

Point out the raceism in this post.

 

[militarysta]

So how does that compare to the western tanks in armour? Without knowing the inner dimensions of the turret, how where you able to compare the armour in the inner citadel?

Who does not know-does not know. Who knows, knows. Not everything is on the network.

btw: inner in T-72A, M1, T-72B, T-80B, T-80U is rather well known. The same about erly Burlinghton.
We can see even inner side structure on one M1A2 photo fom Iraq if you want

How is a thicker Armour qualify as being more advanced than denser Russian armor?

Well...just compare T-72B inner (~1984) and knowledge about very erly Burlinghton (1973)...and think.

Since late T-80U and T-90A "inner" in estern tanks is more simmilar to the western solution.

 

[Damian]

So how does that compare to the western tanks in armour? Without knowing the inner dimensions of the turret, how where you able to compare the armour in the inner citadel?

1) We don't know exactly how its compare to NATO MBT's armor in case of quality, but because Arjun was made with help of Germans, then thickness should be similiar.

2) Simple comparision, however to clear anything photos of turret interior will be nice addition to discussion, but IMHO Arjun armor thickness of turret front is similiar to Leopard 2 so ~800-840mm at left turret front face, ~600-650mm behind main sight, and ~800-840mm under main sight, all at 0 degrees from turret center axis.

How is a thicker Armour qualify as being more advanced than denser Russian armor? Wont that just mean having different characteristics?

It's pure history, while NATO in late 1980's concentrated development on more advanced composite armors, it seems that Russians and Ukrainians feel that they don't need as advanced composite armors and ERA can replace at some point for example heavy metal alloy elements. This means that we have here two different solutions providing similiar protection level.

NATO - thick, expensive and heavy advanced composite armors.
Russia/Ukraine - thinner less advanced composite armor but supported by integral heavy ERA that is lighter and cheaper.

Point out the raceism in this post.

Why did You mention only my country? I know You don't like me and generally Slavic nations.

We can see even inner side structure on one M1A2 photo fom Iraq if you want

What we see on these potos are only outer layers that are sort of NERA or NxRA, we don't know anything about inner layers of composite armor over turret sides.

BTW first photos are old M1A1HA or M1A1HC, lower photos are indeed M1A2.

 

[militarysta]

Simple comparision, however to clear anything photos of turret interior will be nice addition to discussion, but IMHO Arjun armor thickness of turret front is similiar to Leopard 2 so ~800-840mm at left turret front face, ~600-650mm behind main sight, and ~800-840mm under main sight, all at 0 degrees from turret center axis.

I don't think soo...

Simplest idea - someone just should mesure normal Ajrun turret. Like Leo2A4 in Poland

What we see on these potos are only outer layers that are sort of NERA or NxRA, we don't know anything about inner layers of composite armor over turret sides.

Sure? and this blue one? This multi leyers basick side armour? ;D

 

[Godless-Kafir]

1) We don't know exactly how its compare to NATO MBT's armor in case of quality, but because Arjun was made with help of Germans, then thickness should be similiar.

2) Simple comparision, however to clear anything photos of turret interior will be nice addition to discussion, but IMHO Arjun armor thickness of turret front is similiar to Leopard 2 so ~800-840mm at left turret front face, ~600-650mm behind main sight, and ~800-840mm under main sight, all at 0 degrees from turret center axis.

That ranks with the Western tanks and adding ERA over it would only make it far more impregnable. However the week spots on the TV (top view) which seem to have no composite Armour, it would be a sitting duck for a missile like Javelin which hits from the top. The designers have concentrated on the Side view of the tank and positioned all the armor on the side and front.

It's pure history, while NATO in late 1980's concentrated development on more advanced composite armors, it seems that Russians and Ukrainians feel that they don't need as advanced composite armors and ERA can replace at some point for example heavy metal alloy elements. This means that we have here two different solutions providing similiar protection level.

NATO - thick, expensive and heavy advanced composite armors.
Russia/Ukraine - thinner less advanced composite armor but supported by integral heavy ERA that is lighter and cheaper.

Yes, that was two diffrent schools of thought. However there is no info on the arjun armor expect it is an gold modular armor adding ERAs over composite armor would only increase it survivability more than western tanks. Without much knowledge about the nature of the composite armor or the inner armor there is no point is saying it is worse off than most tanks. That is a proof less biased assumption, first of photos are not evidence when we do not know the nature of the armor we have no way to look at an photo and calculate how much impact it can take. Indians have learnt from both Russian and Western scientists on this.

Why did You mention only my country? I know You don't like me and generally Slavic nations.

I think you answered your own question, YOUR country. What else am i supposed to compare with, USA? Poland is a small country with a limited army and ability to build weapons so you hide behind a lager term like West and Russia, which some how is supposed to make you immune to your own short comeings.

I dont hate all Slavic people, i hate anyone who hates me or comes over here to show indians r inferior to their own nationality, thats not wrong is it?

What we see on these potos are only outer layers that are sort of NERA or NxRA, we don't know anything about inner layers of composite armor over turret sides.

BTW first photos are old M1A1HA or M1A1HC, lower photos are indeed M1A2.

I did not say this but militrista seems to be a nice member and she is from Poland to, you can learn a lot from here, she has super manners and puts her point fort intelligently have you seen me or anyone in a tussle with her?

The way you came out the first day, barging everything on the Arjun is inferior without absolutely any proof has killed your legitimacy to be called an unbiased member. Your clearly biased.

 

[Damian]

That ranks with the Western tanks and adding ERA over it would only make it far more impregnable. However the week spots on the TV (top view) which seem to have no composite Armour, it would be a sitting duck for a missile like Javelin which hits from the top. The designers have concentrated on the Side view of the tank and positioned all the armor on the side and front.

All MBT's are vurnabale to Javelin or Spike or any top attack ATGM's.

Yes, that was two diffrent schools of thought. However there is no info on the arjun armor expect it is an gold modular armor adding ERAs over composite armor would only increase it survivability more than western tanks.

What makes You think that Kanchan is comparabale to NATO composite armors? I will remind You that NATO is working on composite armors for a long time, US were working on composite armors from 1960's at least. So what makes You think that with ERA Kanchan will provide superior protection? And NATO was not supporting India with their armor technologies.

Currently west is experimenting with nano technologies in armor development, such things like nano ceramics or nano metal alloys will be more and more common in west.

I think you answered your own question, YOUR country. What else am i supposed to compare with, USA? Poland is a small country with a limited army and ability to build weapons so you hide behind a lager term like West and Russia, which some how is supposed to make you immune to your own short comeings.

I dont hate all Slavic people, i hate anyone who hates me or comes over here to show indians r inferior to their own nationality, thats not wrong is it?

militrista seems to be a nice member and she is from Poland to, you can learn a lot from here, she has super manners and puts her point fort intelligently have you seen me or anyone in a tussle with her?

The way you came out the first day, barging everything on the Arjun is inferior without absolutely any proof has killed your legitimacy to be called an unbiased member. Your clearly biased.

1) Militarysta is he, not she.

2) You are rascists or have rascist orientation because nobody never said bad things about India.

3) You don't know anything about my country.

4) Pointing out weak sides of different designs is not biased, rascist etc. If I say that some point of Arjun design are weak or bad choices, this means only what it literally means, not that Indians are morons.

Can You understand this? You think that everybody that have cricital view is against You?! The answer is no! I'am not interested on nations superiority, my only interest is in AFV's designs and problems solutions, if I say that something is wrong designed, then I see it purely from design point of view, not because it is Indian, Japanese, American, Polish or Russian.

I did not say this.

It was not directed to You.

Sure? and this blue one? This multi leyers basick side armour? ;D

Yes, because I was not talking about turret bustle armor that have different structure than crew compartment side turret armor.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

All MBT's are vurnabale to Javelin or Spike or any top attack ATGM's.

Yes.

What makes You think that Kanchan is comparabale to NATO composite armors? I will remind You that NATO is working on composite armors for a long time, US were working on composite armors from 1960's at least. So what makes You think that with ERA Kanchan will provide superior protection? And NATO was not supporting India with their armor technologies.

Currently west is experimenting with nano technologies in armor development, such things like nano ceramics or nano metal alloys will be more and more common in west.

The point is the Composite armor has defeated all rounds fired at it without ERA, that is what western armors do as well, west could be more advanced but addition of ERA would make this comparable to western tanks in terms of ability to with stand hits.

What logic is there to say it wont? Also if the west goes the nano technology way we will catch up on that as well, we have shown many times we can catch up.

1) Militarysta is he, not she.

Ok

2) You are rascists or have rascist orientation because nobody never said bad things about India.

So you agree you said bad things without logic to back it?

3) You don't know anything about my country.

Just saying Poland has no MBTs comparable to Arjun. Unless you show me you have an MBT program.

4) Pointing out weak sides of different designs is not biased, rascist etc. If I say that some point of Arjun design are weak or bad choices, this means only what it literally means, not that Indians are morons.

So far you have neither have any clue or source to point out anything. So it was biased and still is.

Can You understand this? You think that everybody that have cricital view is against You?! The answer is no! I'am not interested on nations superiority, my only interest is in AFV's designs and problems solutions, if I say that something is wrong designed, then I see it purely from design point of view, not because it is Indian, Japanese, American, Polish or Russian.

Did anyone argue or fight against militrista like with you? Your behavior is biased and illogical most of the time, do you understand the fault with your behavior or not? How did you start of your discussion here, do you remember how biased you where? As they say first impression is the best impression and you screwed yours.

 

[Damian]

The point is the Composite armor has defeated all rounds fired at it without ERA, that is what western armors do as well, west could be more advanced but addition of ERA would make this comparable to western tanks in terms of ability to with stand hits.

If addition of ERA will bring Kanchan to western composites armor level then it is probably true, and there is noting bad about it, because it will make Indian tanks lighter.

What logic is there to say it wont? Also if the west goes the nano technology way we will catch up on that as well, we have shown many times we can catch up.

Where did You catch up? I did not see still in IA inventory attack helicopeters comparabale to even old AH-64A, or MBT comparabale to latest NATO designs.

It does not meant that Indian designers are inferior, it only means that west is not standing in one place waiting for others.

So you agree you said bad things without logic to back it?

Where did I say something bad about India?!

Just saying Poland has no MBTs comparable to Arjun. Unless you show me you have an MBT program.

But we have Leopard 2A4, and there are early works on new MBT under Wilk/Maczek program.

So far you have neither have any clue or source to point out anything. So it was biased and still is.

But I pointed out armor weak points in Arjun design, source are photos and knowledge on subject. And no, it was not biased, You are biased because You think that Your patriotic duty is to fight with anyone that have any critical point of view on weapon systems design made in Your country.

Did anyone argue or fight against militrista like with you? Your behavior is biased and illogical most of the time, do you understand the fault with your behavior or not? How did you start of your discussion here, do you remember how biased you where? As they say first impression is the best impression and you screwed yours.

This only means that You did not understand my simple words, and no, my words were not biased and not illogical, but based on that what I seen, what informations were provided by Your own goverment and how I compared this to othert countries developments.

Of course You can be a biased pseudo patriot, I don't care, it shows only You in such light, not me.

 

[Yusuf]

GK maintain composure. You are discussing with a pro who knows what he is talking. Don't bring in nationalities or other irrelevant topics into the picture.

It's a discussion. You don't have to hammer your beliefs into someone. Respect opinion and move on. There is no battle that has to be won here. We are all here to learn.

 

[Damian]

I have request for Indian users. Do any of You are abale to provide good photos from HVF Avadi of T-90S and Arjun Mk1 production lines? I mean vehicles in buidling process.

I will be very thankfull for photos to analize.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

I have request for Indian users. Do any of You are abale to provide good photos from HVF Avadi of T-90S and Arjun Mk1 production lines? I mean vehicles in buidling process.

I will be very thankfull for photos to analize.

You have an whole video on it, look for the 1st part.

 

[plugwater]

I have request for Indian users. Do any of You are abale to provide good photos from HVF Avadi of T-90S and Arjun Mk1 production lines? I mean vehicles in buidling process.

I will be very thankfull for photos to analize.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

GK maintain composure. You are discussing with a pro who knows what he is talking. Don't bring in nationalities or other irrelevant topics into the picture.

It's a discussion. You don't have to hammer your beliefs into someone. Respect opinion and move on. There is no battle that has to be won here. We are all here to learn.

Yusuf, i dont care if someone is a professional or not if his behaviour is bad then i have the right to get back.

Also how do we know he is a professional?

 

[Damian]

Thanks, the problem is that there are any welding process photos. You see to see where actually composite armor is palced we don't even need interior photos, turrets at welding process are good enough, especially with open and empty composite armor cavitys.


BTW, naming me professional is nice, but it is not true, I'm not tank or AFV's designer. However I'am educating my self to be professional military journalist specializing in AFV's designs, and to be one, it is definetly not good to be biased. So contrary to what GK says about me, I'm not biased and I'm doing anything to not be... this don't mean I will be nice if someone says bollocks about AFV's design solutions and other problematic issues.

 

[plugwater]

Thanks, the problem is that there are any welding process photos. You see to see where actually composite armor is palced we don't even need interior photos, turrets at welding process are good enough, especially with open and empty composite armor cavitys.


BTW, naming me professional is nice, but it is not true, I'm not tank or AFV's designer. However I'am educating my self to be professional military journalist, and to be one, it is definetly not good to be biased. So contrary to what GK says about me, I'm not biased and I'm doing anything to not be... this don't mean I will be nice if someone says bollocks about AFV's design solutions and other problematic issues.

 

[plugwater]

 

[plugwater]

Livefist: Photos of MBT Arjun production line (Part I)

Livefist: Photos of MBT Arjun production line (Part II)

Livefist: Photos: Last batch of photos of MBT Arjun production

 

[Godless-Kafir]

If addition of ERA will bring Kanchan to western composites armor level then it is probably true, and there is noting bad about it, because it will make Indian tanks lighter.

Nano technology is atleast another decade away.

Where did You catch up? I did not see still in IA inventory attack helicopeters comparabale to even old AH-64A, or MBT comparabale to latest NATO designs.

This is what is annoying with you, you have to be educated ob everything and we need to come back to point-1 after you have learnt it. What about the LCH and ALH attack helicopters also the Arjun and T-90 are not far behind NATO, if there is confronation Indian tanks wont be like outdated iraq tanks, they have everything the west has.

It does not meant that Indian designers are inferior, it only means that west is not standing in one place waiting for others.

West has more money, with limited resources and technology denial they have still made it.

Where did I say something bad about India?!

About Arjun tank you did say.

But we have Leopard 2A4, and there are early works on new MBT under Wilk/Maczek program.

They are not polish tanks they are used german tanks.

But I pointed out armor weak points in Arjun design, source are photos and knowledge on subject. And no, it was not biased, You are biased because You think that Your patriotic duty is to fight with anyone that have any critical point of view on weapon systems design made in Your country.

How come i had no such patriotic duty with militrista? Dont hide your biased behavior behind your identity, i have even defened chinese products here because the assumptions they made where wrong at it, so i had to set theme strait, does that make me Chinese? No. You yourself found out wrong you where on the sights issue and why did you go on and on and on about it being German even when you did not know? Why where you so confident when you did not know? Was it because you came here with an preconceived assumption Indians are morons? Guess what, your wrong.

This only means that You did not understand my simple words, and no, my words were not biased and not illogical, but based on that what I seen, what informations were provided by Your own goverment and how I compared this to othert countries developments.

Of course You can be a biased pseudo patriot, I don't care, it shows only You in such light, not me.

Your are not always illogical but you need to learn to be polite in asking if you dont know, you dont become inferior or stupid if you ask if you dont know about something. Other wise it destroys the ambiance and mode of the forum from learning to trolling hate attacks.

 

[Damian]

Several conclusions on the first look. This small opening on the side wall of main sight "window", IMHO this is opening for main sight conection to gunner ocular, so it is actually less vurnabale placement than in Leopard 2.

But what is under is much more interesting, we actually see a black hole and nothing more. Because there are no better pics of this place I will hold with my opinion, however I have some theories how it looks like.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

I did like to see this digital camo of LCH on Arjun!!!