Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[militarysta]

check your eyes.

mark this hole

 

[methos]

There are many different factors to be taken into account other than the fire control system, like the ammunition or the crew skill. It could be that during the first three shots the gunner was aiming at the upper right corner of the tank, but he changed his aim point for the last shot. Then the dispersion of the shots would be average and not terribly bad.

T-72 B3M has to go "walking speed" while shooting stationary targets? What FCS it has, anyone?

It is most likely the stabilization. Older tanks like the Leopard 1 and M60 only could fire accurately during the move at lower speeds.

This is wrong, if that square is 1 meter, then the group is >0.5m horizontal. 0.5m/1000m = 0.0005, arcsin(0.0005) = 0.02865 degree = 0.5 mils = 1.71 MOA

The dispersion is measured from the center of all impact places, not from the center of the target (the cross). To hit the target closer at the center of the cross the FCS can be tweaked or the aim point changed.

 

[militarysta]

yes -picture whit tank bhiatlon from Type-96A;

 

[CCP]

And result is visible:

again, prove the target in your pic is hitted by a leo at "moving 35km'h from 1600-1800m".

 

[militarysta]

What was unclear here?
I proven this.
Sucht "tank target No.60" is used in Polish army in case Leopard-2 only during TWO shooting .
And I postad link whit pdf whit offcial polish moD data. So what is unclear here?

 

[CCP]

What was unclear here?
I proven this.
Sucht "tank target No.60" is used in Polish army in case Leopard-2 only during TWO shooting .
And I postad link whit pdf whit offcial polish moD data. So what is unclear here?

You did not prove anything but showed us a manual.

I want you to prove the pic : the target is hitted by a leo at "moving 35km'h from 1600-1800m".

also, dont forget the proof of

whit copied rusian TKN commander sight and others.

 

[militarysta]

Or this:

..:: 10BKPanc :: 2005 ::..

17.12.2005
Szkolenie poligonowe OSP
W okresie od 30.11.2005 r. do 16.12.2005 r. 2 kompania czołgów z 1bcz zrealizowała szkolenie poligonowe na OSP Świętoszów .

W dniu 01.12.05r.na SBCz 2 kcz została poddana strzelaniu szkolnemu nr 2N tj. strzelanie w ruchu, o charakterze sprawdzającym z czołgu L2A4 osiągając następujące wyniki



1. Strzelanie szkolne nr 2N , strzelaÅ‚o 14 załóg, 12 bardzo dobrych, 2 – dobre. Ocena Å›rednia 4,86 (5)

Skuteczność trafień pierwszym pociskiem 120mm - 100% tj. 14/14

Skuteczność trafień ogniem z 7,62mm km MG-3A1 - 85,7% tj. 12/14

W dniu 08.12.05 2kcz zrealizowała strzelanie bojowe nr B1 i B1N tj strzelanie różnymi sposobami w różnych reżimach i trybach pracy SKO czołgu Leo 2A4 w dzień i w nocy. Uzyskano następujące wyniki :



2. Strzelanie bojowe nr B1 , strzelaÅ‚o 13 załóg, 10 bardzo dobrych, 3 – dobre.

Ocena średnia 4,77 (5)

Skuteczność trafień pierwszym pociskiem 120mm - 97,6% tj. 41/42

Skuteczność trafień ogniem z 7,62mm km MG-3A1 - 76,9% tj. 10/13



3. Strzelanie bojowe nr B1N, strzelało 15 załóg czołgów, 11 ocen bdb, 4 oceny dobre, ocena średnia 4,73 (5)

Skuteczność trafień pierwszym pociskiem 120mm - 97,8% tj. 45/46

Skuteczność trafień ogniem z 7,62mm km MG-3A1 - 73,3% tj. 11/15

Photos:

enought?
if not OPEN this pdf:
http://www.rzi.hg.pl/pliki/wozy_bojowe.pdf

and chceck details for:
"7.6.1.2. Strzelanie szkolne
Nr 2 – strzelanie w ruchu"
and
"7.6.1.4. Strzelanie szkolne Nr 4 – strzelanie różnymi sposobami w różnych trybach i reżimach pracy SKO"

anyway:
distance is 1600-1800m and 1400-1600m, and tank is moving - as marked in offciial polish MoD manuals. Photo form tank bde are posted above. The same offcial scoring.

 

[CCP]

Or this:

..:: 10BKPanc :: 2005 ::..



Photos:

enought?
if not OPEN this pdf:
http://www.rzi.hg.pl/pliki/wozy_bojowe.pdf

and chceck details for:
"7.6.1.2. Strzelanie szkolne
Nr 2 – strzelanie w ruchu"
and
"7.6.1.4. Strzelanie szkolne Nr 4 – strzelanie różnymi sposobami w różnych trybach i reżimach pracy SKO"

So,is that says the target is hitted by a leo at "moving 35km'h from 1600-1800m"?

also, dont forget to prove

whit copied rusian TKN commander sight and others.

 

[militarysta]

So,is that says the target is hitted by a leo at "moving 35km'h from 1600-1800m"?

Yes, you have all:

1. Gunnery descripsion given on offcial polish 10 Armoured Tank Cavalery Bde page:

strzelaniu szkolnemu nr 2N tj. strzelanie w ruchu, o charakterze sprawdzającym z czołgu L2A4 osiągając następujące wyniki

Skuteczność trafień pierwszym pociskiem 120mm - 100% tj. 14/14

"trening shooting no.2 shooting in moving to checkt tank Leeopard-2A4 whit sucht result:
effectiveness of hitting target by first round 120mm -100% 14/14"

and you have photos of hit targts, and official polish MoD instruction whit distance -in this case:
1600-1800m.
etc.

No doubt, evidence are givven:
1) oficial manual form polish MoD
2) photos
3) accurate descripsion on polish 10Tk.Cav.Bde page

in last two we have not only moving tank but on distance 1200 we have a moving target also.

 

[CCP]

Yes, you have all:

1. Gunnery descripsion given on offcial polish 10 Armoured Tank Cavalery Bde page:

"trening shooting no.2 shooting in moving to checkt tank Leeopard-2A4 whit sucht result:
effectiveness of hitting target by first round 120mm -100% 14/14"

1.at what speed?
2.what is the distance?

and you have photos of hit targts, and official polish MoD instruction whit distance -in this case:
1600-1800m.
etc.

No doubt, evidence are givven:
1) oficial manual form polish MoD
2) photos
3) accurate descripsion on polish 10Tk.Cav.Bde page

again, the pic is given at what speed? and what distance?


also, dont forget to prove

whit copied rusian TKN commander sight and others.

 

[militarysta]

1.at what speed?

35km/h

2.what is the distance?

was given fourt times before:
1600-1800m

 

[militarysta]

also, dont forget to prove

whit copied rusian TKN commander sight and others.

type-96A:

TPD-K1:

Type-96A:

(i know - pooor quality but central mark visible )

TKN-3 (notice marks)

Type-96A:

while in main sight I can have a doubts, then commander sight is without doubt chineese copy of the TKN-3 or simmilar even sight marks are the same

 

[CCP]

type-96A:

TPD-K1:

Type-96A:

(i know - pooor quality but central mark visible )

TKN-3 (notice marks)

Type-96A:

while in main sight I can have a doubts, then commander sight is without doubt chineese copy of the TKN-3 or simmilar even sight marks are the same

yeah, the "poor copy" had total 92.8% accuracy against 60% of the original one.

 

[CCP]

35km/h

where is the 35km/h from?

Is that related to moving position 1600-1800m 100% accuracy?

was given fourt times before:
1600-1800m

So, you can given 1000 times if you want .
But, what is the 1600-1800m related to moving position targeting accuracy?

 

[militarysta]

yeah, the "poor copy" had total 92.8% accuracy against 60% of the original one.

But it doesnt change fact that comander sight in T-90A is cloned TKN-3.

 

[militarysta]

where is the 35km/h from?

Is that related to moving position 1600-1800m 100% accuracy?

Propably yes.

Minimum allowed speed during shooting is 20km/h - if crew is moving slower the whole shooting is not aprove.
To get highter rank speed is incarease to ~35km/h

Anyway, ammo test in Poland where done using 20km/h for tank:

(notice that this is normal HE-FRAG not APFSDS-T-TP or HEAT...
So in theory accuracy shoud be worse.

 

[313230]

The dispersion is measured from the center of all impact places, not from the center of the target (the cross). To hit the target closer at the center of the cross the FCS can be tweaked or the aim point changed.

lol, sometimes you acts like Damian

View the below picture, I marked the horizontal dispersion, which is greater than 0.5m, e.g 0.5mil at 1000m


photo hosting

 

[militarysta]

In terms of accuracy on russian forum: otvaga2000 was given one old polish magazine (2001) whit
PT-91M prototype fire tests results:

It's interesting - 2000 year, PT-91M prototype (not finall version!) and SAVAN-15 FCS in PT-91.

Бронетехника Республики Польша - 2

Interesting found! It's from polish RAPORT magazine from 2001.

This tank on photo is not the serial PT-91MZ it's experimetnal tank PT-91M prototype whit mounted part of the new FCS from France:
SAVAN-15 from SAGEM and consist:
- new gunner sight whit thermal camera
- new commander sight VIGY 15
- 20kg new main balistic computer
- waether indicator (meteo)
- alevation and traverse indicator mehanism for gun

is not clair in tekts if tank have new stabilisation mehanism and turret drive or they left old ones

The fire tests where done using 3 type of rounds:
BK (HEAT)
BM (APFSDS)
OF (HE-FRAG)
the target was shield whit dimensions: 2,3 x 2,3m

and the results:

using gunner sight - 3 shoots:
Night, 2000m, tank not moving, target not moving, using BM round - 68%.
Day 2000m, tank not moving, target not moving, using BK round - 87%
Night 1600m, tank not moving at angle 10., target not moving, using BK round - 86%
Night 1600m, (comander is shooting using main sight), tnak not moving, target is moving whit random speed and direction, using BM-91%

Day, 2000m, tank is moving 20km/h in to target direction, target not moving, using OF round - 81%
Day, 2000m, tank not moving, target is moving to the right, using BM round - 74%
Day, 2000m, tank not moving, target is moving to the left, using BM round - 82%
Day, 3800m, tank not moving, target not moving, in this case 4 rounds BM - 25% (ech...)

using commander sight - 3 shoots
Day, 1600m, tank not moving, target not moving, using BM round - 77%
Day, 1000m tank is moving in to target direction, target not moving, using OF round - 98%
Day, 1600m, tank not moving, target is moving whit random speed and direction, in this case 4 rounds BM -92%

And finnal summary is that this tank must have completly separated commander panoramic night sight, not only day sight whit "look" in to gunner night mode in main sight.
On base those trials in finall PT-91M FCS was improved.

 

[methos]

lol, sometimes you acts like Damian

View the below picture, I marked the horizontal dispersion, which is greater than 0.5m, e.g 0.5mil at 1000m


photo hosting

No. The dispersion is measured from the center of all impacts. The gunner does not necessarily aim at the center of the target, hence it is not 0.5 m dispersion, but the numbers provided in the image. You apparently don't know anything about these images, they are part of a trial to use U.S. ammunition in the Leopard 2. Given that the Leopard 2 has a different fire control system than the M1 Abrams (and as the Leopard 2A6 a longer gun), the data used in the fire control are not as exact which might lead to a bad aiming point as in these photos. The dispersion however is however independent of the aiming point, a simple update with more accurate values for the fire control system and the center might be hit more easily - the dispersion however stays the same.

Your "0.5 m dispersion" is therefore 0.22 m as mentioned in the image.

 

[CCP]

But it doesnt change fact that comander sight in T-90A is cloned TKN-3.

It is your homemade "fact".